"Anyone who nonconsensually violates your brain/mind/mentation using Mengele-like methods is a Nazi pig. You do not care what a Nazi pig thinks. You do not care about a Nazi pig's opinions. You do not respond to a Nazi pig ridiculing you, threatening you, trying to distract you, or otherwise trying to manipulate you. You work to get a Nazi pig hanged." - Allen Barker, NPT Theorem

Saturday, April 7, 2012

Fritz Springmeier Interview 1/2

Here is some more to prepare you for the material soon to be sent. Please utilise this material only to integrate your compassion to ever greater synthesis of coherent Unity. A Midway path that has no attachments to the ends of black or white cannot be touched by any illusionary binary code of the computer of the universal dream. With these codes now emerging into the consciousness of the public mind, it means tens of thousands of Monark slaves coding system will be evident for the public and will be revealed, as will their handlers who rely on the public at larges' naivity therein. Hence, we are one step further to bringing the cancer amidst the secret stagnation of the body of humanity into the imm-une system of compassion, as we as Cosmic Man incarnated within this universal computer to wake up its binary code through phase-conjugational all encompassing compassionate love, coherent integration in action as the Hum-our of All-Oneness.  Here is one more of these breakthroughs in Unity realisation (the most important material is to come over the next days). Let us be All Is God Conscious integration, as the Unity of Unity's With and As Us.

CKLN fm 88.1 - International Connection, Ryerson Polytechnical University Toronto, Canada (September 2000)

Wayne Morris: Good morning, welcome to the International Connection. This is show #35 in the radio series on Mind Control and over the next few shows we are going to be talking to Fritz Springmeier and Cisco Wheeler, co-authors of the "Illuminati Formula Used to Create an Undetectable Total Mind Control Slave" and "Deeper Insights", books about trauma based conditioning mind control. Fritz is a researcher about the Illuminati and minister to mind control victims. Cisco Wheeler says she is from a generational Illuminati family and that trauma-based mind control was perpetrated against her from birth. We will hear the interview with Cisco in a couple of weeks, and today we are going to hear an interview with Fritz Springmeier. Fritz talks about the Illuminati families and how they have used mind control to consolidate their power throughout history. You are listening to CKLN 88.1 FM. I am speaking with Fritz Springmeier author, lecturer and minister to mind control survivors. Welcome to the show Fritz.

Fritz Springmeier: Thank you and hello to all you listeners out there in radioland. I encourage you to participate with our program today because we are going to be speaking about some important things that affect your life and will affect the lives of your grandchildren.

Wayne Morris: I would like to start off with asking you how you first came across the information about government mind control.

Fritz Springmeier: Government mind control overlaps with many other things - it overlaps with a higher government and a secret world government called the Illuminati. As I investigated the Illuminati I had to also learn about their front that they operate. They hide behind the veil of National Security. They use our patriotism against us and make us think that for our own interest, for our own security of our own nations, that we have to subject ourselves to all the secrecy that they impose upon us.

Wayne Morris: Did you come across all the information about mind control through your research into the Illuminati, or vice versa?

Fritz Springmeier: Yes, through the Illuminati. That's not to say that I hadn't been watching the government too, but a lot of what we see out front is just that - it's a front and if we really want to understand what's going on, we have to look behind that front.

Wayne Morris: Maybe you could explain to our listeners, to your understanding, who are the Illuminati?

Fritz Springmeier: The Illuminati are the movers and shakers of the world. They are an elite group of bloodlines - I call these tribes or families - there are 13 major bloodlines. They are what are called "generational satanists". That means that they have practised their secret witchcraft for many centuries and they have passed their religion down from one generation to the next. They lead double lives. They have one life that the world sees and then they have a hidden life that the world doesn't see. There have been very few people that have been able to break through the secrecy. They have taken secrecy to a fine art that I would never have believed that anyone could achieve until I started getting into this, and there have been very few people over the years that have broken through that secrecy at all. There was a man named John Robison who wrote proofs of a conspiracy against all the religions and governments in Europe carried on in the secret meetings of the Freemasons, the Illuminati and reading societies. That came out in 1798 and the Bavarian government, by raiding several safe houses of the Illuminati, captured original Illuminati documents back at that time period which were bound and sent out to all the governments entitled: "Die Originalschriften des Illuminatens Ordens" (sp?) as the German title the Bavarian government gave it. But in modern times there have been very few people that have been able to talk about the Illuminati as it exists today, and that's been my job. To bring to the world who these people are, what their traditions are, what they are doing, everything about them. The reason I am giving a longer version here to your question is that when someone asks who or what are the Illuminati, they do not think like we do. People often times interpret things around them in terms of how they themselves think or their own world view. If you want to understand the Illuminati, you have to understand that these people do not think like you or I. In just one area alone, that is a large percentage of these people are programmed multiple personalities and just that in itself creates a whole different thinking pattern from those of us who are not multiple.

Wayne Morris: When you say the Illuminati, is this the same group that is documented that Adam Weishaupt had started back in 1776 in Bavaria? Is this the same group?

Fritz Springmeier: It's the same group. He actually didn't start the organization, it goes way back. These are oligarchical families that are extremely powerful and if you go back in history and ask yourself the question, "when did the elite, powerful, oligarchical families ever give up their power?" You can't find any point in history. These are the families that - some of these bloodlines go clear back to Nimrod. The Rothschild secret genealogy that they have secretly written down through the centuries, traces their genealogy back to Nimrod. These people were the ones that controlled the mystery religions. There was a supreme council that sat over all of these mystery religions of the ancient world. They were an extremely powerful priesthood, and they chose to go underground for many years and continue working behind the scenes. But they never left. At the end of WWII there was a committee that was sent out throughout Europe to do a study of all of the churches that had been destroyed by the war, and they discovered that in most of these Christian churches (80%) they found that where the Christian alter had been, when these churches had been destroyed, underneath these alters were pagan alters that had been uncovered. So what you have is that a lot of these cathedrals were built on lay lines that were very powerful occult spiritual points and on after hours these churches were used for what we would call satanic rituals. So this has been going on secretly for many centuries.

Wayne Morris: And you are saying that the Illuminati are responsible for infiltrating these churches?

Fritz Springmeier: These are our movers and shakers, very powerful bloodlines. For instance, one of these bloodlines includes all of your royal families of Europe. They are the people that have been in control. If you look at a lot of these nation states, you will notice that at the head of their church are their kings and queens.

Wayne Morris: You mentioned there are 13 families in the generations of the Illuminati families? Can you name them?

Fritz Springmeier: I came out with a book that was specifically designed to go family by family and discuss them. The top 13 bloodlines are the Astors, Bundy, Collins, Dupont, Freeman, Kennedy, Leigh, Onassis, Rockefellers, Rothschild, Russell ... then there is a 13th bloodline which is the Merovingian bloodline. I just simple call it the 13th and then there is the Van Dine Illuminati bloodline. The 13th bloodline, the Merovingian, is extremely important. It includes the royal families of Europe. In my Volume I book which covers the Top Thirteen Illuminati Bloodlines, that's the title to it, I don't go into the Merovingian bloodline so much because there came out a trilogy of books, "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail" and two other books by their authors - Baigent, Leigh and Lincoln - which is so good in discussing this bloodline that wasn't any real reason for me to go into it. For instance Prince Charles would be part of that. If you look at Prince Charles, you will notice in his genealogy he is related to our Presidents Washington, Jefferson, Madison, both of the Harrisons, Tyler, Taylor, George Bush. Bush's vice president, Dan Quayle, was also related to the royal family. Prince Charles is also related to Mrs. Woodrow Wilson. Here in the USA the concept is that we have all of these individuals who have been selected to run this country who are unrelated to each other -- and yet it is quite the contrary. I have been told when they dedicated George Bush's library in Texas recently, that President Carter mentioned that he was reading a recently published book about the Presidents being somehow related to each other.

Wayne Morris: When did you first realize the existence of the Illuminati? What information came your way to spark your interest?

Fritz Springmeier: Everybody has probably heard of Jehovah's Witnesses and how they would go out and knock on people's doors. I was the opposite. I was a Christian missionary to bring Jehovah's Witnesses to Christ and I was getting tired of working with these little Jehovah's Witnesses on the street, and I was praying to God to be given the power to decapitate the authoritarian organization that is over these Jehovah's Witnesses. At that point, I got my prayer answered. I got this confidential information that the heads of the Watchtower Society were collaborating with the heads of the Latter Day Saints church. That information totally changed my life. I had bumped into the Illuminati and their mind control, and I am not to single out the Watchtower Society and the Mormon church because I found out that their infiltration and control is pretty well right across the whole spectrum. Your Christian organizations in general have been infiltrated and controlled from behind the scenes. This is when I first bumped into the Illuminati. I had learned about 20 years previous to this what a lot of people are already aware of about the Council of Foreign Relations, Trilaterial Commission and these types of groups, the Bilderbergers - but there is a whole other level to things. When I started getting into reading, researching and trying to help people that wanted out of the Illuminati to get out - I started getting in at that level. Then I had to work with the mind control. One thing led to another.

Wayne Morris: What is the relationship of the groups you just mentioned to the Illuminati?

Fritz Springmeier: There are a lot of groups around the world that are making decisions that are controlling things from behind the scenes and these particular groups are fronts for the Illuminati. Not fronts in the sense that they have no actual purpose, they serve a purpose. But there is a hidden level of control back behind them.

Wayne Morris: In terms of the Illuminati families and the whole organization itself, what are their goals? Why have they infiltrated so many of these organizations?

Fritz Springmeier: Ultimately it's to bring in what people have termed the New World Order with a man who will hold the world's attention and carry the title The Antichrist. That's the ultimate goal and I am not trying to wax religious on people but that's just the simple fact. When you get into deprogramming people you will see that a lot of the things they have been programmed to do tie in with a very sophisticated plan to unify the world under the reign of the Antichrist.

Wayne Morris: You mentioned that the Illuminati group has used mind control to further their goals. How did you first come into this? You have been working with your partner, Cisco Wheeler, who I understand was an Illuminati mind control victim. How did you first meet and realize what was going on there?

Fritz Springmeier: She was trying to break free of her mind control. What I stumbled upon was, at least in my opinion, the greatest slavery involved in all history. You had four high level Illuminati women who had been teamed together. They had all become Christians and were trying to break free and had become a support system for each other. Here I was a researcher of the Illuminati, there's a lot to try and explain. When you are under the mind control, there is a lot of programming not to reveal the secrets. It is very difficult for someone who has been in the Illuminati and received their standard mind control to not divulge what is going on, so it made it much easier to work with me that I had already done my homework, and they knew I was going to understand what they were talking about. They didn't have to say a lot to communicate certain things, because I was already aware and that saved them from a lot of the grief from the program kicking in for having talked too much. Cisco was part of this group attempting to escape the mind control, and I got involved in their lives and did what I could to help them. I brought Cisco out of the Illuminati and in return my learning curve about the Illuminati was greatly increased because I was given inside information from these people and a number of other people. Like I say, trying to understand the secret organization, the secret bloodlines is very difficult, because one has to stand outside of one's own culture and own way of thinking and understand these people as they think, and they do not think like we do. Being able to work with these people who were in the Illuminati was very valuable.

Wayne Morris: Because they have used mind control techniques on their own family members throughout the years?

Fritz Springmeier: Oh yes. They have been carrying out this mind control on their own people as well as others for centuries and this has all been a very closely guarded secret. It's one of the reasons why they have been able to carry out so much to implement this New World Order without people being able to figure out there is such a thing as a worldwide unified conspiracy. They are very skilled in knowing how to bring things about so they appear natural.

Wayne Morris: What is the purpose of them using mind control on their own family members?

Fritz Springmeier: It's really essential. If you are going to participate in the Illuminati secret life, being a programmed multiple is basic. There are a few in the Illuminati who aren't programmed multiples, but considering what one has to participate in. You've got a number of standard rituals involved - St. Weinbald, St. Agnes, Grand Climax, Walpurgis, Beltane, all your solstices and equinoxes, Lamas, All Hallow's Eve, High Grand Climax -- all of these standard rituals. These rituals are very horrific. They involved human sacrifice. Sacrifices of babies on the High Grand Climax. On various Sabbats you've got a young female or a male being sacrificed. This is not something that the normal mind is going to be able to handle. The mind control and the creation of multiple personalities where you get a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde effect - is very crucial to this thing continuing from generation to generation.

Wayne Morris: They really use the multiple personalities to facilitate this double life that they have to lead ... before we get into the techniques that they use for mind control and the details of that, you mentioned they seem to have a belief system as well. Could you talk about that?

Fritz Springmeier: The Illuminati is the continuation of the Mystery Religions and as someone comes an adept of the Illuminati they have to learn a whole series of paths. They give the different types of cult knowledge names from the 12 Apostles plus the 13th is called the Holy Grail. These men and women become very skilled in occult knowledge and I am not sure how much I should go into that, but I guess what I am trying to say is that they will be trained in alchemy, in Indian sorcery, Druidism, Enochian magik, Gnosticism, Hermetic magik, cabbalism, Plato, Sufism - they will know all the different branches of occult systems.

Wayne Morris: How do they use that information? Do they incorporate elements of all of those occult belief systems into their own?

Fritz Springmeier: It all ties in together. The idea is to amass occult power to yourself and that's the reason why the Collins family was brought into the top 13 bloodlines. Of course the Merovingian Dynasty had a lot of magik power and a lot of political power, but the Collins family which was Scottish had extremely powerful occult powers so it was brought in to be one of the top occult lines because they were such powerful black magicians. Cabbalism and the 26 path workings - this is all very important in the work that they do, and it all ties in with the mind control too. But most of the therapists out there are secular or approach it from the secular angle, and as they deal with these mind control victims' programming, they don't touch on the spiritual aspect. What I am trying to say is that their religious beliefs can't be separated from the mind control. It is an integral part of that.

Wayne Morris: Do the Illuminati worship a single being such as Lucifer?

Fritz Springmeier: You've got different levels in which people operate within the Illuminati. There is the anarchy level which is your common witchcraft coven, and then you've got your hierarchy level. On the anarchy level there are thousands and thousands of covens. I have listed the addresses and names of hundreds of these in one of my books. These covens are very eclectic. They can have their own traditions, their own rituals. There is a wide variety of practices on the anarchy level ... that's what it looks like, is total anarchy. One doesn't see any connection. Above that is your hierarchy level where you would have Asmodeus, your Grand Masters, and Mothers of Darkness, Grandmothers, Granddaughters. If you are a programmed multiple, you can function at many different levels. You can have one personality in this coven, and another personality in that coven and this personality that is in the Masonic Lodge, and another in this hierarchy ceremony, another participating in another Satanic ritual. It is very broken up. One of the reasons why it is not easy to answer your question is basically everything we understood about human behaviour and how to gauge or judge people is obsolete. The mind control, by creating programmed multiple personalities, has made all of our ways of judging people obsolete. Within the Illuminati the supreme goal is to balance their good deeds with their bad deeds, they are dualists. They are Luciferians at the highest level. That's why your greatest philanthropist will very often be your highest ranking satanist. What they are trying to do with their philanthropy is self serving when you actually look at it. It's not as generous as it appears. They are trying to do good deeds and balance those with their bad deeds, they believe in balance in their religion. It's a gnostic luciferianism.

Wayne Morris: I think it might be difficult for the people listening to understand how somebody could be in public doing good deeds and having a good public image, and at the same time having this very dark side. I don't know if you have read the recent Judith Spencer book, "Satan's High Priest". It really illustrates how that works very clearly. It's a true story about one particular satanic cult, a high priest, and his rise to that.

Fritz Springmeier: No I haven't read the book, but I am glad that you brought that out to the listeners. The way that someone can begin to see the Illuminati is to start looking at how these people are above the wars and the rest of what we have to suffer. For instance Pierre Samuel Dupont, during the French Revolution, all kinds of people around Pierre lost their heads and yet, for some strange reason, Samuel Dupont managed to "keep his head" when so many hundreds of people were losing theirs to the guillotine. One person who was influential in protecting him was Necker's daughter, Madame Germaine Destael. She ran a cat-house, but anyway she was intimate friends with St. Simon and St. Simon's disciples were saying at that point in time in the early 1800's that the target date for the New World Order would be the year 2000. Another example in history, and I brought this out in the Top 13 Illuminati Bloodlines book, is when the U.S. went to war right after Pearl Harbor, within a few days, President Roosevelt came out with a Presidential Decree which was a semi-secret amendment to the Trading with the Enemy Act, and it made it legal for certain people to trade with the enemy, if they were given permission by the American Secretary of the Treasury who at that time was Hans Morgenthale. I copied the paper work out of the Federal Code of Regulations. They actually have this Presidential Decree where if he wanted to exempt somebody, he could allow them to trade with the enemy. Who were the people that were given that privilege? Rockefellers and Onassis, both of them Illuminati kingpins. During WWII every ship that was a Greek merchant ship was sunk during the War by one side or the other. Something happened and essentially all of the Greek shippers lost their vessels. There was one Greek shipper, Aristotle Onassis, who didn't lose a single ship and his vessels sailed through all the war zones. None of the Allies or the Axis powers ever attacked his ships. For something like that to happen, you have to have full collaboration at the highest level. You see these kinds of things going like - Pierre Samuel Dupont, Aristotle Onassis. Then you are looking at somebody who is Illuminati. They sit above all these conflicts that they create for all the common people.

Wayne Morris: This way of bypassing trading with the enemy regulations, how has this been utilized with regard to WWII or the Bolshevik revolution for that matter?

Fritz Springmeier: In fact there is an entire book out - I think the title is "Trading with the Enemy", it came out in 1983 and answers your question. Rockefeller Standard Oil shipped gas and oil to Spain which then piped it directly to the Nazis. The Allies knew that Rockefeller was supplying the Germans. That prolonged the War a couple of year. But you don't hear about this by establishment historians. There was a lot of important trading during WWII was necessary to sustain the Nazi war machine. And you mentioned the Bolshevik revolution. Again you will see there was a lot of finances sent from, as you are probably well aware and some listeners are aware, from Kuhn Laib (sp) and Company and some of these other llumaniti people, and that money was used by the Bolsheviks to finance the revolution. There were a lot of other agreements made at that time and things done to help them out. There is a lot going on behind the scenes.

Wayne Morris: It seems like they are promoting a strategy of tension where they are funding both sides and basically profiting from the resultant conflicts that they are fomenting.

Fritz Springmeier: One could go on and on. For instance Heinrich Mueller who was head of the Gestapo - you will notice that at one point he took an old Jewish family and he himself had to personally carry their suitcases to his own car and when he got them to the Swiss border, he carried their suitcases. The Swiss bodyguards by the way, were laughing seeing the head of Gestapo helping an old Jewish family escape Nazi Germany. When the listener out there starts seeing these kinds of things, now that you have heard me talk, you can begin to realize that there is a hidden level out there, way beyond what the common person is allowed to see at that Illuminati level. These are the people who are collaborating behind the scenes where you have Catholics and Protestants and Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormon leaders - you think these people are at each other's throats - but they are key Illuminati people who are secretly collaborating.

Wayne Morris: In talking about the Illuminati, I think a number of people may have difficulty believing that there is a Unified Liberal Conspiracy to control the world. Even myself, up until recently, until I started researching into the mind control, I thought the Illuminati was a fictitious group. In doing your research about the Illuminati, what were some of your other sources of information besides the people on the inside that had escaped?

Fritz Springmeier: My sources, besides my eye witnesses, were interviewing a number of honest law enforcement and private investigators - in fact some of these people are still ongoing friends of mine. Over the years I have studied thousands of books, and thousands of documents which has meant going to special libraries, such as the Genealogical Library at Salt Lake City. I have interviewed and worked with many therapists and I have taken off and travelled to sites where programming is done, where rituals are done, where crimes have been committed. For instance in Washington state, a number of hours from here, there is a full scale replica of Stonehenge. Below this replica of Stonehenge which sits on a hill, is a cemetery a number of feet away and Illuminati rituals are done at that cemetery. That's an example of a place that I have gone and looked at for myself. I need to bring in another concept here that is important to research. It's not all simply just getting a lot of interviews and the facts because the raw facts aren't going to do it. When I was in college and I was taking counselling, the psychologist who was teaching the class gave some excellent advice. He said, "when you are listening to people or examining a situation, don't look at the details but look at the process. The details may throw you for a loop because people will lie, they will give contradictory information. Look at the process." That's a very good principle. What I have been doing is analyzing a lot of raw data, raw facts and interview information, and I have been putting together a coherent puzzle. That means you have to overlook a lot of disinformation.

Wayne Morris: In the late seventies there was a certain amount of information about CIA mind control that came out to the public, and I would like to know what you think are the problems inherent in trying to prove the existence of mind control to a general audience through government documentation?

Fritz Springmeier: The problems with trying to expose things through government documentation are one, the documentation has been destroyed or tampered with and to get the government involved in exposing these things, what you are basically doing is asking a bunch of criminals, that's what they are even thought they work in government positions, to expose themselves with paperwork. That's just not the way things work. When we think about the Nazis, they were trying to destroy all traces of their crimes. They tried, they didn't succeed. That gives me some hope that even though a great percentage of the proof of the mind control in terms of government documentation has been destroyed, I am still convinced that tons of documents still exist. But I think even better than those tons of documents are the living proof we have in the tens of thousands of identified living victims. The other side to the problem of getting government documents is that then you have to have some way to broadcast that to the public at large and we have a controlled media, and unfortunately the media is very tight with the government. You can really question whether you would ever see our controlled media fully expose to the proper degree the people that need to be exposed.

Wayne Morris: It seems highly unlikely that the mainstream media is going to be investigating this. It's more likely to be coming from independent investigation and independent publishers of this information.

Fritz Springmeier: I would love to see the places where the records are kept broken into and these records exposed, but the only way I can see this happening would be if there was a revolution on the magnitude of what happened in Eastern Europe where Stasi records and things like this were exposed to the light of day.

Wayne Morris: Do you think a government investigation into the mind control experiments, similar to what has happened with the Tuskegee syphilis and the radiation experiments would actually bring out information?

Fritz Springmeier: I believe it would bring out information. That's true. However, for the government to investigate this is like asking the fox how much of a threat he is to chickens. The fox is going to tell us something, enough to satisfy us, but I am real leery about giving the government another chance to push some ulterior agenda. The bottom line is that a government investigation is going to cost us more tax dollars, and I think people sometimes forget that every time they send their government scurrying around doing something that it comes out of their pocketbook.

Wayne Morris: Do you think there is any benefit though, to society as a whole, in terms of having a government investigation going on, and having the government at least admit they did do these kinds of experiments? Is there any benefit to the people as a whole in trying to expose this?

Fritz Springmeier: As a whole? The way you ask your question is going to reflect the way I answer. No, it will not. The reason why I say this is that earlier on the US Congress had Rockefeller investigate the CIA. Rockefeller investigate the CIA!?! (Laughs) Of course his investigating committee came up with abuses, they have got to find something wrong, but the thing of it is that it makes Rockefeller look like a good fellow. "Oh look he's a crusader who is trying to expose the bad guys." They always throw in an ulterior agenda. If they are going to do something against themselves, they use it as another opportunity to work on some other agenda. If they expose A, B and C about mind control, then they are probably doing it in a way so they are misdirecting people's attention from their latest technology through an older model that they have discontinued, or something like that. They are going to work in some ulterior agenda that when it's all said and done, it has actually done a disservice.

Wayne Morris: How do you think the information about mind control has been kept from public attention for so long?

Fritz Springmeier: As we mentioned just a little bit earlier, we have a controlled media and in a number of my publications I have gone into detail and showed who is in control of the media, and how these people are Illuminati members or participating in their Illuminati fronts. I document how the Rockefellers, and the Rothschilds and the William Randolph Hearsts - Illuminati kingpins - control the media. I think it's appropriate a couple of anecdotes. I was visiting one day with a Christian minister and he was asking me what I did since I worked full time exposing the mind control and helping victims of mind control, and exposing the New World Order's agenda. I was honest with him, and told him that and in the course of doing that I mentioned something about the controlled media and boy he hit the roof. He went ballistic on me because just prior to becoming a minister he had been an ABC reporter. He said, "there is no control over the media! I was allowed to write and have any stories that I wanted!" I said, "whoa, slow down, let me ask you some questions." When you were hired, your superior hired you and kept you on because he liked the way you thought and the way you wrote ... and likewise his superior liked the way he thought and the way he wrote ... and on and on down the line. If anybody had written or thought in ways that weren't the approved ways of thinking and writing you would have gotten in trouble, wouldn't you. He said "yes." I said, that's it ... when I work with victims of mind control they can't see that they are under programming. As long as they do exactly what the programming asks them to do, they don't know that they are in programming. The only time that they know that there is any programming there is if they step out and act against it. If you are running with the wind behind your back or if you are in a stream and you are floating down the stream, you don't notice the current. But when you try to swim upstream is when you really notice the power of the current. So if you as a reporter step out of what their expectations are, that's when you get clobbered and you realize there is a lot of heavy force behind going against the direction the way they want to go in. He said, "you're right." I said if you had written an article that had been contrary to the way your boss thought, you would have been in trouble, wouldn't you? He said, "yes, you are right, I see your point." That's my point. People don't notice the control until you start bucking against that control and then you are going to find out how much control there is over our entire society.

Wayne Morris: It seems that control in the newsrooms is almost at an unspoken level, and often for a lot of reporters it's an economic motivation as well. The stories that their editors do get accepted, the stories the editors don't like don't get accepted and the reporters don't get paid for it. They very quickly appreciate what their editors are going to accept and print.

Fritz Springmeier: Exactly.

Wayne Morris: I would like to talk about the mind control that the Illuminati have used and the techniques therein. What is your understanding of the forms of mind control they have used?

Fritz Springmeier: The phrase that I like to use is "Total Mind Control" because it totally controls the person - body, soul and spirit. And the common person out there has never really imagined that something so all-encompassing or so horrendous or so totally powerful even exists. The type of mind control the Illuminati use - I think some people think "oh, mind control - television - yeah - subliminals." No. I am talking about something that is 1000 or 10,000 times more powerful. This mind control is totally undetectable and it totally controls the person and it uses every known technique of controlling a person wrapped up in a sophisticated group package. That's one of the important things that a lot of people have not emphasized - that it's not one technique, but what makes this total mind control of the Illuminati so powerful is that it's a sophisticated group package incorporating all of the known techniques of control. All of these methods have been carefully interwoven. When you listen to someone from an intelligence agency, occasionally they have talked similar to this, where they will say, "we tried such and such a technique but it only worked in 70% of the cases so we couldn't use it ... and we tried this technique and it only worked part of the time." But what they are not telling you is that if you take a method that works only 70% of the time and match that to another technique that works 60% of the time, and another technique that works 50% of the time and you have 100 techniques wrapped up together like that, you make a package deal that totally locks the victim in to the control.

Wayne Morris: Can you talk about some of these techniques individually and how they were used as a group package?

Fritz Springmeier: When I started out to describe to people what was going on, I had files and files. I had about 150 files of different techniques. I was thinking to myself, well I can't talk about 150 techniques, that's too overwhelming for people. I thought and realize that all of these techniques broke down into 12 sciences. One of the sciences is the science of trauma and torture. Others is how to use applied drugs to control a person; their ability to use mental states such as hypnosis, dissociation, the trance states; their skill at deceiving people and deceiving the victim themselves. One needs to understand that the victims of the Illuminati mind control do not even know themselves that they are under control. So there is a lot of skill in using fiction and deceit and fronts and covers. There is a science of using spiritual things to control a person. In fact actually that is perhaps one of the major, if not 'the major' method of controlling a person. There is a science of using spiritual things to control a person. In fact actually that is perhaps one of the major, if not the major method of controlling a person. One of the things that's not political popular today for people today in science to admit is that mankind has a spiritual side to them, but humans do have a spiritual side to them and the Illuminati understand how to spiritually control someone. Their understanding of that has boggled my mind. They have only allowed the common people including the Christian people - the crumbs so to speak - even our ministers have only been given the crumbs on how to develop a person spiritually.

Wayne Morris: And how do you feel they have developed this and gained this knowledge?

Fritz Springmeier: A lot of this began back in the Sleep Temples of the Egyptians. We go back to your Egyptian priesthood and the Mystery religions - they were already learning at that time how to use electric shock - they used electric eels and other things to electrically shock people. They had already started to learn the use of drugs and herbs to create altered states and to control people. These were secrets though that were very closely guarded by these Illuminati families and their Mystery religion priesthood. But they continued to develop these over the centuries. Another example of a closely guarded secret was the ability to do cranial manipulation. During the Middle Ages and even centuries prior to that, the oligarchical families that controlled the common people had specialists that did torture for the kings, and they kept their secrets about torturing to themselves. One of the things they developed was the ability to do cranial manipulation. You have to be very careful when you start moving the bones of the skull. A lot of people don't realize that the skull is not a solid bone, but it has sutures between the different parts of it, and you can do very subtle manipulations and move those skull bones. In fact today there is something called cranial osteopathy. These osteopaths are very skilled in using their fingers. That developed from the family of bone-setters who tied back into the occult who had learned the secret occult skills of manipulation.

Wayne Morris: What has effect has this had in terms of the mind control - the cranial manipulation?

Fritz Springmeier: Cranial manipulation has been kept an occult secret in occult bloodlines for centuries. And it can be used for good, to heal people. It can be used to change the way the face looks to improve the face, or it can be used for evil, to torture someone or to control their mind. By manipulating the skull you can actually change the way the person thinks to make them more dissociative, or more compliant, or develop their thinking in other ways.

Wayne Morris: Can you explain how they would start using these techniques, and generally at what age they would start?

Fritz Springmeier: When a child is conceived, a lot of them - their very birth has been an idea from the start. Somebody who is in the Illuminati conceiving a child in an occult ritual with a woman. It gets very involved as to how they hide their lineages. Let's put it this way. Not everybody born to mothers are actually the biological children of that mother. There is a lot of switching done at hospitals and so forth. The child's birth has been planned. While the child is in the fetus, they already begin certain things to test the fetus' mental abilities and to traumatize that fetus so it will be more dissociated.

Wayne Morris: How would they do that?

Fritz Springmeier: A fetus does not like to be poked, does not like substances that taste bad. If a mother eats a lot of sugar they have shown by watching the fetus that these unborn children like the taste of sugar as it diffuses into what the child is getting from the mother. So if you combine a lot of these things that are horrific. If you have a lot of loud noises - and the father is screaming at the mother and throwing her around and abusing the mother, making the mother very upset. Then you've got loud music, rock and roll, or screaming or something. You have also given the mother something to eat that tasted really bad to the fetus and you can do a number of things that are going to hit that little unborn child at the same time. It's going to be overwhelmed, and it's going to develop its ability to dissociate.

Wayne Morris: To your awareness, has electricity been used in this regard?

Fritz Springmeier: Not so much in the traumatization of the fetus. They use that after the child is born. They oftentimes will have a premature birth. It happens in many different ways, but one of the methods they like to use is to have a premature birth because then the child can be traumatized naturally. There are a whole bunch of natural traumas that go along with being premature. Your skin is very sensitive, you get catheters up your behind, and so forth. They want the traumatization to begin very early on because they want somebody who can trance out and dissociate from the pain. You are probably familiar with the Indian fakirs - the holy men in Indian who can walk on coals and stick pins in themselves and sleep on beds of nails. How does it happen? Because they are able to dissociate and go into a trance state, an altered state. The Illuminati want to create individuals who are able to dissociate very well, because that is part of the requirement to have the ability to have a multiple personality.

Wayne Morris: And that is the purpose of the traumatization - is to create that dissociation?

Fritz Springmeier: That's one of the purposes.

Wayne Morris: What is the importance of dissociation within the total mind control?

Fritz Springmeier: It's extremely important. You will hear a lot in recent times about electronic mind control, and that's being used to divert people away from the more important issue of multiple personality disorder or DID. The ability to create multiple personalities that are programmed is extremely important. It's why they have the ability to be secret, it's why they are able to do so much in secret. The electronic mind control - throwing mental ideas into somebody's brain which are foreign is not that much of a threat. I have worked with quite a few victims of electronic mind control and the majority, if not all of them, are able to recognize that something is being beamed into their heads that is foreign. But when you are dissociated and you have amnesia between yourself and other parts of your mind, you don't know what you yourself in your entirety are all about. For instance I had a Christian minister who spent some time trying to deprogram - he has come and visited here to work on his programming. Here you have a Christian minister who, horrors of horrors, discovers that he has a dissociated part of his mind which has been functioning within the Illuminati and these other parts of his mind are satanic. Imagine being a man of God and finding out that you have parts of yourself that sacrifice people ... (laughs). That's why this ability to dissociate into multiple personalities is such a dangerous ability.

Wayne Morris: Maybe you can talk about the nature of dissociation and how that is used for controlling somebody and also, as you mentioned, being not aware of the different identities that are being used for other purposes...

Fritz Springmeier: People are familiar with dissociation and how the mind has the ability to function on several tracks. For instance, if you are at a party and engrossed in a conversation with somebody and you are focused on what they are saying, and all of a sudden somebody across the room says your name, and your mind immediately switches and goes "oh they are calling me over there", well that's one evidence, and there are other ways to realize that the mind is not one monolithic entity but it is broken up into components. While you were engaged in that conversation with somebody, there was one part of your mind which was still listening to other things. It was a dissociated part of the conscious mind; in other words, it was dissociated from the conscious. You weren't conscious of that part of your mind that was listening to the rest of the conversation but it was. Hypnosis, trance and dissociation are just different aspects of the same thing. The Illuminati have learned over the centuries how to put people in different mental states and the information is learned in the different states. To access that information best, you need to go back to that particular state. People realize what I am saying because when you get into a particular situation that's reminiscent of a previous experience, that's when your memory is best triggered. They go a lot further than just using natural dissociation. They have learned how to create amnesia walls within the mind and basically what they are doing to the mind is the same as what we do to computers. In order to make computers functional they had to figure out some way to section off part of the computer's memory so the user could not access that memory. It had to nest that memory. You will notice that when you reboot your computer, the computer reboots itself with memory that you weren't able to access. That memory was dissociated - in human terms I guess you could say there is an amnesia wall there. They know how to build walls in the mind to mentally section off the mind - and they do this through trauma. If you get a severe enough trauma what the mind will do in order to continue functioning is dissociate that trauma with an amnesia wall. Let's say you were in war and your best friend had just gotten blown to smithereens by artillery ... his guts are lying out. Your mind may build amnesia walls around this event and you may not be able to remember it. So the worse the trauma, the better the amnesia wall. The Illuminati take a small child about two years old, and they begin traumatizing it with the worst traumas that are imaginable so that they can create these amnesia walls. They find these dissociated pieces of the mind which are just like in a sense floppy disks, then they put in their programming to the dissociated parts of the mind as to what they want that part to become. Some of these parts they make into personalities and they create MPD, DID and then while they are creating these multiple personalities, they are programming them to be exactly what they want them to be.

Wayne Morris: Before we get into what kinds of things they are used for, maybe we can just go back and talk about how a person is conditioned to be a total mind control slave, and pick it up when the child is born. What happens there in terms of the conditioning.

Fritz Springmeier: The programmers like to say "this child is a piece of clay", and they view themselves as the potter's wheel, of course. They are very skilled in knowing how to take a child and work with that child's mind to create what they want. We could talk all day about this. One of the aspects we haven't gotten into yet is their ability to go in and identify - they use EEG's - backtracking and stepping outside of the Illuminati for a second ... You've got researchers like Hans Eisneck, who happened to have been born in Germany and other researchers too who studied how your average _______ potentials - these are brainwaves - can be monitored and can be used to see what type of thinking that brain is capable of. You can use EEG's to determine personality and IQ. They have correlated their ability to study the human brain with EEG's to John Gittinger's PAS tests. When a child is born they begin testing its brain to see what is this person's personality, what type of thinking is this person capable of, what type of career should be plan out for this person. So they take the natural bent of the mind, the natural capabilities of the mind and they work with that. Likewise when they are doing the traumatization and they are splitting the mind, they work with the child's creativity and what those pieces of the mind think.

Wayne Morris: Typically at what age do these tests start - the EEG's and the Personality Assessment Surveys...

Fritz Springmeier: They do some of it while the child is still a fetus, and after its born they start neonatal behavioral assessment skills, the Bailey Scales and other tests, and within a short time, perhaps by 18 months, they will be doing EEG's and determining what they want to do. Once they determine what kind of life they want to structure for this person, they begin the mind control to structure the person for that career. This is why people like myself who have a natural intelligence that has never been connected to any of these bloodlines, we have such a hard time out there in the competition because the Illuminati can take a particular child and manipulate things from behind the scenes and open all the right doors for this person, and they can get them the grants and the schooling and everything they need and adding impetus to this person's career is the mind control that is steering them in that direction too. The end product is you end up with somebody who is an engineer or a lawyer or a politician who is very highly qualified for what they are doing.

Wayne Morris: Once they have controlled somebody, what kinds of things would they be used to do for the Illuminati?

Fritz Springmeier: This has not been brought out very well by other people and maybe it's just simply because they are not aware of it, but the mind control is not just to create somebody who is a sexual slave, but it's to infiltrate and control society across the board. Understand that if you are going to control something like establishment medicine - you have to have your people in key positions because the weakest link the chain is going to break. You can't have any weak links. They salt their people throughout society in general, from the gutter to the castles. An example of one group of people that they have created for modern society are stalkers. In my recent book, Deeper Insights Into the Illuminati Formula, I go into how they create stalkers and why they create stalkers. Let's say you are trying to control medicine because the establishment medical system brings them in lots of money and the medical establishment is very powerful, you have to have control of the entire spectrum of things - the hospitals, what kind of health care is going to be available, the type of training these doctors are going to get, they have created secret strike forces like the CCHI and the NCHF that keep people in line. All of this requires mind control slaves being salted in throughout the entire system. If you have one weak link - for instance if you have one person who is practising alternative medicine and you don't control the judicial system - you are not going to be able to convict, eg. this homeopathic doctor if you don't control the judicial system. You have to have this vast secret apparatus, and until people understand the mind control, they can't understand how there could possibly be the type of control that they have.

Wayne Morris: In order to understand how they are able to control these people that they have put in key positions in society, we do have to talk more about the techniques of mind control, and maybe we can go into that now, of how they are able to effect control over these people. For example, the trauma.

Fritz Springmeier: The trauma would be used for a whole number of reasons, but at the very basic level when you traumatize somebody to the point where they almost die, or actually to be more specific they actually do "kill" these people but they know exactly how many seconds they can allow them to be killed and still bring them back to life. They manipulate near-death experiences, they have that down to a science. That was the major reason that you had the major concentration camp experiments by Mengele where people were tortured. He belonged to an Illuminati bloodline and was doing Illuminati research for mind control purposes, he did a lot of research on twins. They found out exactly how much trauma you could give different people before you killed them. What that trauma does is it puts the brain back into a survival mode and now I have to get into explaining that the popular concept of the brain being one monolithic brain is real deceptive. It has been kept very secret but the human brain is actually seven brains. The first brain of the human mind - the medullah and the pons - is called the Reptilian Brain because it thinks like a reptilian. If you are always traumatizing a person, you keep them in their reptilian thinking or their survival based thinking. Survival based thinking has certain characteristics. At the very basic level, the trauma can be used to keep somebody within their survival based thinking. It also creates fear and there is a whole series that spiritually happen to a person when they get caught up in fear. If you think in terms of blackmail, the listener may remember when he was a child and somebody grabbed your arm and twisted it and said "say uncle" and of course your arm hurt, and you gave in. That's a very simple type of mind control. The trauma and the torture can be used in a very simple way - if you don't comply it is going to hurt. Men who are slaves are electroshocked in their genitals. It is very painful. That's a very simple way of bringing someone in line. Then of course there are ways the trauma is used to split the mind, fracture them into thousands of pieces, create multiple personality disorder. That's one of the techniques.

Wayne Morris: Just to stay on the topic of trauma, what is the importance of maintaining that trauma in terms of keeping the conditioning intact and keeping the state of dissociation intact?

Fritz Springmeier: They want to maintain a high level of trance and dissociative behaviour in the victim, so they like to continue traumatizing the person. As I brought out earlier, there is more involved than just keeping the dissociative level high. Your also trying to maintain the person to stay in the reptilian, survival based thinking; trying to keep them having a spirit of fear controlling their lives, so they don't slack off. They secretly train the parents of the children who are being programmed on how to abuse their children so they keep their children very dissociative. Not only that, if the children are going to some established religious institute, eg. Catholic church, Episcopalian church, their priests, their clergymen have been trained in how to abuse the children. This is why you have such a big modern day problem within the Catholic church. So many of the priests abusing children and the lawsuits brought against this church, and some people have said they think it is going to financially bankrupt the church - the reason why so much of this is going on is for purposes of mind control.

Wayne Morris: Have these priests and clergymen been coerced to participate in this, or are they part of these Illuminati families? What is their role?

Fritz Springmeier: There are a lot of different reasons why someone is a pedophile. One of the problems within the Catholic church is that there haven't been normal outlets for sexual activity provided for priests and nuns, and then they are given these subversive ways to release their sexuality. Some of them are actually secret satanists and this is part of the reward they receive from a secret coven. There are various reasons as to why - some just go along because that's what everybody else is doing and it is allowed until people put their foot down and say we are not going to tolerate this. I can talk about a number of cases where people did put their foot down and say we are not going to tolerate this abuse of our child by the clergy, and the hierarchy that should have penalized this person simply promoted them and sent them to some other part of the country. Why they do it? God knows why each person has become an abuser.

Wayne Morris: Can you explain how the dissociation has been used in terms of programming and the structure of that programming?

Fritz Springmeier: The victim of the mind control has had their mind split into many personalities, actually far more personalities than what the people in the therapeutic community generally realize. Cisco who I brought out of the Illuminati has very standard programming in many ways, although she has unique features to her system of personalities. She had a very standard grid of 13x13x13 alter personalities. Each one of those personalities has been given a separate history, separate personality which has its own likes and dislikes. What they did was turn what was one person into a whole city of people and the only way the mind of the slave can function is if it relies upon the master to give it stability. Imagine if your mind was a whole series of competing persons, each with their own ideas, likes, dislikes. The only way to bring some order out of the chaos would be to have some controlling entity ordering that chaos. Some of the slaves have reached the point of becoming aware that they are multiples and on the deeper levels they realize that they need the mind control for their minds not to break down into total craziness. Another way of looking at it is - what the Illuminati are doing is creating controlled insanity for these victims of the mind control to endure the horrific trauma that's given to them, they have to isolate their memories of that trauma and the parts of the mind that have to pick up some of that trauma - some of those parts, in essence, I hate to use the word "crazy", but they are taking the garbage that's happening and the mind is shuffling and isolating it. If those walls of dissociation break down, then the other parts of the mind are going to have to deal with a lot of garbage.

Wayne Morris: Why do you think they needed so many identities to be in place?

Fritz Springmeier: If you are going to invest the time to create a robot, you are going to incorporate as many capabilities as possible and you want to compartmentalize so everything is secret. One of the reasons why intelligence agencies function so well - eg. CIA - is that they compartmentalize everything. You only "know" on a regional basis. They do the same with these people's minds. A slave may function on many different levels. He's got his front - they create the best front possible - his or her everyday life - but then they may want to use that person for drug smuggling, money laundering, carrying messages, performing satanic rituals, producing porn movies, assassinating somebody, spying on somebody - and then you've got internal jobs too. Going back to what I said earlier, remembering how the mind has been fractured into many dissociated pieces, and essentially a whole city of people has been made out of those pieces. In order for that city of people to function, you have to have different jobs. You will have some of the older personalities taking care of baby personalities internally in the person's mind - you have functions - gatekeepers, hierarchy alters that are controlling other alters - a hierarchy of personalities. That's a whole science in itself - how to structure dissociated parts of the mind.

Wayne Morris: You mentioned the one structure, 13x13x13 grid. Are there other structures used that you are aware of?

Fritz Springmeier: There are many different structures. It all depends on the whim and fancy of the programmer as he shatters the victim's mind, he can reassemble that mind however he wants to. He can use a sphere - they create systems within systems too. A common system within a system is the cabalistic tree of life.

Wayne Morris: Do you see similarities in the survivors that you have been working with in terms of the structures?

Fritz Springmeier: Oh yes. That's one of the things - you can have a therapist in one state, and they will not have know anything about MPD or DID and they will start working with the victim and call another therapist for help and taking notes. The victim will say, "I drew these pictures. I don't know what they mean." "I am fascinated with Star Trek (or the Wizard of Oz) (Mickey Mouse)". The therapist will call another therapist and ask what they make of this. If this other therapist is experienced, they may say "oh hey - I've got somebody who is just like that." All across the country, there are therapists and then people like myself who is a minister working with these people who are running into the same patterns time and time again, the same structures. Like I was saying, working with people who were in the Illuminati, working with people that did the programming itself, is really helping my learning curve too in terms of the structures that are built in. Another common structure you will see is a lot of mirror imaging, that's a more of a technique than a structure.

Wayne Morris: What do you mean by that? The mirroring of an alter?

Fritz Springmeier: Mirroring of all kinds of things. That's part of the technique of deceit.

Wayne Morris: That's the purpose of using this mirroring, for example if a therapist came across one alter, dealt with, there may have been a mirror of that...

Fritz Springmeier: A lot of the therapists think they are dealing with a particular personality but they are dealing with its mirror image. The systems are programmed, created so that if somebody starts working with them there are all these defensive mechanisms that are triggered. One of the defensive mechanisms is to have mirror image alters take the place of who the therapist is trying to work with. So the therapist thinks they have done something but they have actually just played games. Mirror images of things within the programming itself so that when one particular personality tries to work on their mind's programming, the mind is so confusing about what they still internally - that they can't figure out their own mind. The best manager is somebody who doesn't have to spend a lot of time giving instructions to a person. If you are a slave master and you have to be constantly telling that slave what to do, and constantly correcting it, and making sure it's doing its job, you become a slave to the slave. What you want to do is create a human robot which will be self-directed and self-correcting so they create hierarchies of alters within the person and one of the things they do is create alter personalities within the person's mind who think they are the programmer themself. So, Ewen Cameron who was a programmer - his victim would have personalities within them that would think they are Ewen Cameron. Therefore they would carry out the abuse of other personalities as they would perceive Ewen Cameron would do it. That's one use of mirrors. Another use of mirrors is if you are teaming two slaves together, let's say you and are teamed. I would have personalities in me that think they are you and you would have personalities created in you that think they are me and it would further the binding process.

Wayne Morris: Generally speaking, with people who have this kind of mind control, how many personalities are you talking about?

Fritz Springmeier: A lot. Cisco has 30,000 standard alters and then there are lots of other dissociated pieces too. That would not be abnormal. The small part of the therapeutic community that's trying to address DID generally work with a few front personalities. There are number of books out there written by people with MPD where the therapist came in and worked with five or six front personalities. The Illuminati step back and allow them to integrate some front personalities and the person is told by the therapist "you are now integrated, you're fine" and they left therapy, and everybody is happy. The victim thinks they are free of their MPD, the therapist has made a lot of money and gotten famous over some book they have written, and the Illuminati is happy because these are just front alters that have been stabilized. The system of alters are far more complex than people realize.

Wayne Morris: What are the dangers involved in dealing with therapy with a mind control victim, particularly when a therapist may be unaware of the techniques and structures of mind control?

Fritz Springmeier: I have to caution people that some of the best minds of the 20th century - we have hundreds, if not thousands, of the best minds who have spent many, many years figuring out how to build these mechanisms into the mind slaves to protect the programming. In a sense what it is like - imagine you are going in to try and hack a computer - imagine a system that is set up so that if someone is not an approved user comes into the room and looks at the computer, the computer shuts down, the computer explodes. That's really what you are looking at in trying to work with a mind control victim - they have a lot of suicide programming so that if the front alters, the personalities that hold the body day in and day out - if they were ever to find out they were in mind control, or that they were a multiple personality, they would commit suicide. You have all kinds of defensive programs. Not only is the computer programmed to explode if you walk into the room, but if you touch the keyboard as an unauthorized user, again the computer is programmed to explode. Every step of the way there are backup programs to deceive, to destroy. It is not easy. It is something the novice does not want to get into. It's something that takes a lot of time and patience and skill, and a lot of love for the victims too. One has to really abhor what is going on to have the motivation that it takes to work with such a complex problem.

Wayne Morris: What would you recommend for therapists wanting to know more about how this is done, and how they can help heal the victims?

Fritz Springmeier: I strongly recommend our three books - I co-authored these 3 books with Cisco Wheeler. The one I already mentioned, "The Illuminati Formula Used to Create a Total Mind Controlled Slave". The sequel to that which is 620 pages, "Deeper Insights into the Illuminati Formula", part 1 is how the control comes about and part 2 is how the help comes about. We've got a lot of good information in there laying the foundation as to what's happened, and how to begin to unravel what has happened.

Wayne Morris: In terms of your own work, how much success have you had in working with victims of mind control?

Fritz Springmeier: The problem that the mind control presents is overwhelming, and there are countless therapeutic issues, so there is no end to the different issues that can be worked on. Cisco and I have freely given of our time to help any victim of mind control in whatever way we could. The degree of therapeutic success depends on a number of things. One, it depends upon the situation the victim puts themselves in. If they are willing to extract themselves from their everyday life and go somewhere where it is safe, they are going to do a lot more - work more therapeutic issues, because the mind of a mind controlled slave is not going to let its guard down as long as it's not safe. This gets back into understanding how the reptilian mind and the survival based thinking can override other areas of the mind. When you become deathly frightened for your life, your survival instincts take precedence over the other parts of your brain. If you have been traumatized your entire life, your survival based thinking is your primary method of thinking and it doesn't take much to throw you into the fear based survival based thinking. So the first criteria for doing successful work with a mind control victim is to get them someplace safe. You could say that 99.9% of the victims of mind control have never been given that. Therapists do not set things up for survivors or victims of mind control to be in any safe situation. When I say safe, I mean they have to be safe 24 hours a day. Cisco and I have been able to work with victims to the degree the situation allowed. There is no end to the work we could do if the right set-up presented itself. This is why I was hoping to create a deprogramming centre. There was a man who was CIA who was very horrified at what the government intelligence agencies had been doing to people, and I have a friend whom this CIA man knew who also works at providing therapy for mind control victims. This CIA man wrote into his will to give a number of millions of dollars to my clients for the purpose of doing therapy work with mind control victims. And then my friend in turn was going to give me a couple of million dollars so I could start a deprogramming centre. This man's will when he died, was in the Oklahoma Federal Building, and the only copy of the will that we know about was in there. So I was rather upset when the building exploded, because that short-circuited our plans to build a couple of deprogramming centres. Short of building some place that is safe and that is staffed with competent people, it is extremely difficult to accomplish much. Even when I have accomplished positive therapy with a victim, all that it takes for the other side to do is physically grab them and reprogram them. This is what has happened for me over the past years in terms of trying to help victims, and as a warning to the public and the therapeutic community at large, at this point not a whole lot has really been accomplished to thwart the mind control.

Wayne Morris: Now in the optimal situation, to what degree have you been able to free the victims of the control?

Fritz Springmeier: Given the optimal situation where we have someone who is safe, we can take down the mind control. We can do some serious re-structuring and make some really serious headway in helping a person. We can do some significant spiritual work with them. There can be some integrating work begun. There are all kinds of things that can happen. On the flip side of it, is the work ever finished? I don't think it is, because the damage that has been done is so extensive, and you never know as a therapist that you have succeeded in finding every dissociated fragment of the mind. Remember there are thousands of fragments of the mind because the traumatization is so prolonged over so many years, and is so horrific, that you can never be sure that you have gotten all of the dissociated pieces, and each of those dissociated pieces is probably going to have programming attached to it.

Wayne Morris: What is your sense of how many people have been affected by this?

Fritz Springmeier: A very conservative estimate - I shouldn't even say estimate because I have computed it from about seven different angles - a conservative figure is 2 million Americans have been programmed with trauma based total mind control.

Wayne Morris: And that's just in the USA?

Fritz Springmeier: Yes.

Wayne Morris: And is it your sense that this is going on world-wide?

Fritz Springmeier: Oh indeed yes, it is. More with your primary political powers. You've got programming going on in Europe, Russia, the U.S.A. - those are your primary areas of programming but in other places too.

Wayne Morris: I would like to talk about some of the other techniques now of mind control. How has electricity played a role?

Fritz Springmeier: Electric shock has been a standard part of the abuse, and it serves as a form of trauma. And stun guns are a standard item to keep the slaves in line and also to erase their memories. They might use perhaps a 120,000 DC volt stun gun to erase and compartmentalize fragments, memories of a slave who has just been used. When you shock a person, it destroys the short-term memory. It fragments it, 24 hours either way of the event. They can also use the shock treatments like Ewen Cameron to splinter the mind so that's electro-shock. Elecricity has been used in terms of implements or devices that have been implanted into people and also used in equipment that will throw thoughts into a peron's mind. You have microwave towers going up vectoring in ELF waves into people's minds. So electricity is being used in a lot of high tech ways, or electromagnetic waves are being used in a lot of high techn ways... They have different machines - EDOM electronic dissolution of memory where they wipe out your memory; harmonic machines that are used which some of your speakers have probably talked about - these machines can be used for the deprogramming work too. Electricity is also used in the flip way in that since the human brain gives off frequencies, they go in and scan a person's personal frequencies they are giving off. There is a prime freq - which is the primary frequency a person gives off and that can be used to identify them from a distance. They know the different frequencies that the brain uses. Coming at it from a different angle, if you think of the brain when it creates a particular thought, it gives off particular frequencies. They simply created particular thoughts within a person and monitored electrical impulses along with that thought, fed that into computers. I am simplifying what they did - but basically that's what they have done to decode being able to read what their brain is thinking. If you monitor the frequencies that are being given off by a person, then you can monitor what their thoughts are. So not only can you throw particular thoughts into people's heads, but they can monitor their thoughts too.A lot of the monitoring and instilling of thoughts, etc. are being done with implants.

Wayne Morris: Can we just go back to electroshock. You mentioned that it is used to erase memories perhaps of the identity of the people who are doing the programming. But don't they run the risk of erasing the programming itself? How do they deal with that?

Fritz Springmeier: This gets back into understanding how the programming is put in, and the level at which it is put in. Remember we talked about dissociated states? The primary programming that is put in is put in at a comatose level. There are different levels that you can program somebody to - if you start out with an adult, for instance, the CIA's nomenclature is mind control Level 5. Somebody who has been given mind control to the 5th level generally has some cover story like for Roseanne Barr - she had an automobile accident apparently as a teenager. They take these people in and they are taken down to a comatose level where their bodies are comatose for quite a long period of time, and the programming is put in at an extremely deep level. At a level where your mind is regulating your heartbeat. The programming is put in and it is nested in at an extremely deep level. When they destroy short-term memory with electroshocking, that's not even coming close to the deep programs - that is just affecting the short-term memory.

Wayne Morris: Have they deliberately regulated the amount of electricity in terms of achieving a desired effect?

Fritz Springmeier: Oh yeah. Everything is extremely scientific. This is why they had to do a lot of the horrific testing during WWII in the concentration camps. You just don't traumatize a person indiscriminately or you will kill them. You have to know what you are doing. They have doctors and heart monitoring equipment. The fundamental programming is done in hospital settings, or hospital-type settings. That's why a lot of the VA hospitals here in the USA - actually all of the VA hospitals - have been used for programming. A lot of the other civilian hospitals have also had particular wards set up where they were able to do programming. They are monitoring heartbeat, they know just how far to push them. When they start going into a near-death experience they know exactly when they can electroshock them to bring them back to life, etc. It is very skilled. They have to be very skilled in the drugs they use, how and when they administer them, what they do when the person is under drugs. What they do is not haphazard.

Wayne Morris: So a lot of experimentation has gone into refining these techniques?

Fritz Springmeier: Yes. Exactly.

Wayne Morris: Can you tell us if you know anything about the development of brain implant technology and that has been used for mind control?

Fritz Springmeier: There are six different types of implants. Audio implants that are used to allow the victim to hear something. Body manipulation implants that are put in to manipulate the body in some way, perhaps to release a hormone or to keep them from getting pregnant or to torture them, or something like that. Then you have a visual holographic implant which will give a holographic image to the person. You have implants that are mimics or brain link implants that if I want to directly download something to the brain, those are very secret implants. The implants are not used across the board with all mind controlled slaves. There are select groups that are receiving the implants and like the mimics, implants are only going to a select group. Then you've got your torture and muscle stimulating implants. Then the one everybody hears about - the tracking and ID implants - that everybody is so concerned about. Those are the implants that were given to a lot of American soldiers in Desert Storm. They were told they needed implants so that the global positioning system could keep track of them so they wouldn't get lost in the desert.

Wayne Morris: I am curious about the actual implants themselves in terms of how they are implanted and approximately the size through the development of the technology?

Fritz Springmeier: The development has gotten really high tech. You have several types of development here that need to be brought out. One, that's called "nanobots" - nanotechnology which are tiny little robots that range from 10-1/1000 billionth of a meter. The word "nano" means billionth - we are talking extremely microscopic robots here that are able to replicate themselves. Molecular size robots. Possibly the listeners have heard of the Scanning Tunnelling microscope? There are different names for it, but it is a little device that can actually see a single atom, and actually pick up atoms and move them. That's used to develop these nanobots which are robots that can self replicate. You have fibre optics that have been developed and you will have some victims that if they get rid of their fibre optics - the fibre optic that is stuck into the victim often looks like a hair.

Wayne Morris: What typically are these fibre optic implants used for?

Fritz Springmeier: Good question. I wish I really knew the answer for that. Fibre optic glass will carry signals, so in broad I can say the implants are being used to transmit signals, I know that much. But I don't know all the ins and outs of what kinds of signals are being sent. I have one victim of mind control who had been sitting in a restaurant - it is sort of analgous to a blowgun where they have hit her with something that looks just like a little hair and the fibre optic filament embeds itself in her skin. While she is sitting there eating, they have shot this filament into her. Fortunately she noticed they had done this, and pulled it out. I had female victims who had fibre optics that was disguised as hair that were put on their bodies. I don't know the full role of the fibre optics but I know it is involved in communications. One of the more dangerous developments are your organic bioprocessors. These are molecular computers that are made up of DNA material. You've got DNA templates and you can also have carbon chains that are used. What they do is - with this biomaterial that is made into a mini-computer, they will link that to a virus and viruses oftentimes have a particular area of the body they like to migrate to. For instance a neurotropic virus will migrate to the nervous system or a dermatropic virus will migrate to the skin, pneuomtropic virus will go to the lungs. They attack their little organic viral processor to this virus. How do you get a virus into a person? There are a dozen different ways, it is easy to get a virus into a victim's/host's body. So once these viruses migrate to that area of the body they prefer, you've got a tiny little implant that is then doing whatever function it is programmed to do. These are extremely difficult to locate. I have noticed in victims that have the virus implants that there will be a sort of central control implant a lot of times put in the bottom base of the neck. The central command implant will be receiving external signals and then will in turn monitor the body suit of implants. Some of the victims of these implants seem to have gotten some relief from being able to kill the viruses. There are some alternative medical methods that might be suggested to the victims that could take out these bio processors.

Wayne Morris: For some of the larger implants, have victims been able to locate and remove these kinds of implants somehow?

Fritz Springmeier: Yes. There have been a number of victims that have been identified - have been able to take xrays, have been able to get other types of scanning mechanisms. There were three victims of electronic mind control that managed to, as a group, get into an Anacoic Chamber and get results when their signals were pinpointed as to source. They had to smuggle the paperwork out from the lab in their bras because the lab technicians were afraid of getting into trouble. Different victims of electronic mind control have managed to get some proof or have actually pulled some of it out. There are some doctors that actually have some of the implants. There are a few clean surgeons that are willing to help victims. I might mention the word Syntel here ... that's an important word for people to be familiar with in understanding implants. Syntel is something that has been discussed by our government repeatedly in some of their conferences. You will hear the military in some of their semi-secret conferences discussing Syntel. That's short for synthetic telepathy which means sending to victims voices and thoughts - so these victims of Syntel are people who are receiving voices and thoughts electronically.

Wayne Morris: That seems to be able to be used in a couple of different ways in terms of control, but also in terms of the situation with people claiming they are hearing voices who are often labelled schizophrenic or psychotic...it seems to be a way of discrediting these people.

Fritz Springmeier: Something that was developed and used during the space program which is called biomedical telemetry - these are transmitters and receivers located at the base of the skull which record the body functions and the brain waves, and send it back to some computer somewhere. In fact in working with victims of electronic mind control I can say with certainty that is what is being done is that there are computers that are programmed with artificial intelligence that are their handlers. Rather than having a human handler day in and out, three shifts of human handlers controlling the victim of electronic mind control, they have computers with A.I. Then if the victim does something that throws the computer, the computer will signal a human to come and get involved. It's been kind of interesting, the stories that victims have told me about how they outsmarted the computers that were trying to handle them.

Wayne Morris: I would like to talk about, and you have mentioned the name, Josef Mengele. What role did Josef Mengele play in developing mind control?

Fritz Springmeier: He is like the father of modern programming. Prior to Josef Mengele, the Illuminati had created MPD, but the training of those personalities had been non-scientific. Mengele worked a lot with twins, understanding trauma and how to use trauma. If somebody is about to die and they are rescued by their programmer, they trauma-bond with that programmer. He learned how to trauma-bond his victims to him. A lot of victims of mind control in Israel and other parts of the world still refer to him as "Papa", they love him. And if the programmer knows what he's doing, he can totally trauma-bond that victim to him to where they love the programmer.

Wayne Morris: It's like the Stockholm Syndrome...

Fritz Springmeier: He was taking programming into the world of science. In January 1945, when it was very clear that the Nazis were going to lose, the Illuminati smuggled him out into the West where he continued doing programming. I have worked with a number of his mind control victims. One of his victims, a lady here in this area, was actually in a concentration camp with Mengele; as a child was experimented on and watched those horrors and had mind control done in the concentration camps. And then she was smuggled via the Ratline actually through your country, Canada, came through the Catholic Church collaborators, brought her through Quebec and then to Portland. And Josef Mengele continued his mind control here in the States.

Wayne Morris: Was Mengele involved in mind control experiments previous to WWII?

Fritz Springmeier: I don't believe so. He was in the Illuminati. His family is Illuminati, but I don't have any knowledge of him doing it prior to the War. Of course I don't know the whole story there. But there was some reason as to why he was chosen for the position that he received. There may be more to the story than I know.

Wayne Morris:It appears that a lot of experimentation was done on the victims of the Holocaust. You have mentioned trauma experiments. What other kinds of experiments were done as they relate to mind control technology?

Fritz Springmeier: One of the things that Mengele was doing, and his friend Ewen Cameron continued this, was experimentation on eye pigmentation. One might say what does this have to do with mind control? Well, like I said earlier, this type of mind control is a total control - the mind, body and spirit of the victim is totally controlled. It is far more extensive than people would imagine. This type of mind control regulates the heartbeat of the victim, and a lot of other things. That's why the suicide programming can be so powerful. He started this pigmentation experimentation which Ewen Cameron ... by the way, Josef Mengele, when he came to the USA was known by the programming name, Dr. Green and Ewen Cameron was known as Dr. White within the Illuminati circles. Cisco Wheeler (whom I brought out of the Illuminati) - her father was known as Dr. Black.

Wayne Morris: You are saying that Cameron and Mengele were associates and friends?

Fritz Springmeier: Yeah. Cisco would occasionally see these men (Drs. Green, and White and there was a Dr. Blue) meet at her father's house out here on the West Coast. They would come together and discuss their programmings, methodologies, networking, talking with each other, etc. They were Program Masters within the Illuminati. Mengele spent a lot of time travelling world-wide, not just here in the Northwest. Cameron tended to work on the East coast and as you are familiar, the Rockefeller Foundation gave him $40,000 back in 1943 to create the Allen Memorial Institute. Even before Mengele came to this country, Cameron was already part of their Illuminati system.

Wayne Morris: Did Ewen Cameron have a particular role within the development of mind control technology? I understood he specialized in electroshock and went around the country teaching other psychiatrists on methods of electroshock? Was that his role, or was it broader?

Fritz Springmeier: They were all working on how to refine the thing - these were your top of the line programmers. Mengele was really the father of it all, and he taught a lot of what he knew to Drs. White, Black and Blue. Mengele was the one who had the opportunity to experiment on a lot of people in the concentration camp where he did all kinds of weird and sadistic things. Cameron and the others were both operational and experimental. If you look at how the military and science works, when they discover something that is workable, they will take that information and they will make a new technology out of it, but they will continue experimenting to improve on what they have done. So, at the same time that Cameron was using electroshock to split the minds of his victims, he was also looking for ways to refine what they were doing. Eventually they came back, and after several decades of looking at the results of the different programming - they took the best programming scripts and the best methodologies and upgraded their programming in general. The programming that is being done today is far more sophisticated and far more refined than what they were working on and operationally carrying out.

Wayne Morris: What special significance do twins have for Mengele?

Fritz Springmeier: If you are going to do a scientific experiment, you know you have need of a control group (subject). How do you get a control group for experimentation on humans? You need twins, and you need thousands of them. Mengele experimented on three thousand twins - that was one of the "benefits" of being within the Nazi concentration camp system. As adults and children came through Auschwitz, he had his subordinates indicate which of them were identical twins. Most of the twins that he worked on died because he was beyond sadistic. He was also developing methods on how to bond people and he was learning how to artificially bond people. I had mentioned earlier how Cisco had been teamed with three other people who also escaped from the Illuminati. They were all "twinned" together, they had artificial twinning done to them.

Wayne Morris: Is it similar to what you were describing before about the "mirroring"?

Fritz Springmeier: The twinning incorporates all of the 12 sciences of mind control - it is pretty sophisticated in itself.

Wayne Morris: To your awareness, did the German Nazis use mind control operatives within WWII?

Fritz Springmeier: Oh yes. They were using them since the early thirties. The Germans and the British both were creating multiples for intelligence work, assassination, and so forth. Prior to the outbreak of WWII, the Nazis were foresighted, and brought Germans to the USA who were trained multiple personalities. They created a settlement of them in Upper New York State. That group of people continues to live there as a group. These multiples who were brought into our country had alters that were programmed to assassinate by sticking picks into people (key places in the body) and things like that. They created this settlement with the idea that if Germany ever would manage to defeat the USA, that these people would be in place to help them.

Wayne Morris: Is there any indication that the USA government had used mind controlled operatives in WWII?

Fritz Springmeier: I have not found any indication that they used programmed multiples, but remember that the leadership of our country was in the hands of the Illuminati down through our history. To a large degree our Presidents are related to each other. A lot of people don't realize how related they are. Ulysses S. Grant, the 18th President, was related to Franklin Deleno Roosevelt. The Deleno family is an ancient aristocratic family that originates in Venice. Ulysses Grant was related via the Deleno family. His greatgrandmother was Susannah Deleno. Grant was also from the Collins family. In one of my videotapes, I go into the Grant family and how they tie in with the Illuminati. One of the reasons I do that is because Cisco is a descendant of the Ulysses Grant bloodline, a descendant of the Collins bloodline. This was her ticket into the Illuminati. Many of our presidents tie back into these Illuminati bloodlines, more than people realize. There were multiple personalities in our government during WWII. But it wasn't until Mengele came over that the Illuminati had somebody with the scientific sophistication to really get into scientifically programs. The "benefit" we received from Mengele and Operation Paperclip was advancing our government's knowledge of how to program innocent children.

Wayne Morris: I would like to change the topic a little bit. How has popular culture been used for programming, and why has it been used?

Fritz Springmeier: There are different levels that you lock a person into and control. One is to control their milieu, their environment. It is extremely difficult for me to talk about all of these issues. They build a person's frame of reference from the time they were little. I ask people, "who built your frame of reference? who built your world view?" From the time you were little, establishment groups - churches, schools, and so forth - have been steering your education so there isn't a frame of reference for people to hang the information I would like to give them. If you don't have a frame of reference to understand any of this information, it is hard to break through of the control. By controlling information and what society does, they steer society as a whole. The schools are used, entertainment, Hollywood, everything is used. The programming a person will receive will use the items of everyday life to control them. For instance, Cisco was taught to smoke as a little child by her father who was her programmer, her master. With every puff, she was to think about how much he loved her, and then when she exhaled, she was also to think a programming thought. So the very act of smoking reinforced the mind control. They will take buildings in the area the mind control lives in and they will use those to reinforce the programming. They will use many common items from the slaves' everyday lives to reinforce the programming messages that have been layered.

Wayne Morris: Maybe we can talk about one film that seems to come up in a lot of survivors' programming - that's 'The Wizard of Oz'. How has that been used?

Fritz Springmeier: It is one of the standard programming scripts that has been used. A lot of people don't realize that Frank Baum actually wrote 14 Wizard of Oz books - The Tin Woodsman of Oz, The Land of Oz, Glinda of Oz, Ozma of Oz. Actually the books were used more in the programming than the movie. If one goes through and looks at the books, and I extracted some of the programming scripts and put them in the Volume 2 book so people could see how Frank Baum's books, whether they were specifically written for mind control or not, apparently fit in beautifully with creating mind control scripts. The movie then would reinforce the scripts that were put in.

Wayne Morris: Would these scripts be used mainly for manipulating the reality of the identities being programmed?

Fritz Springmeier: Most of the personalities that are created within a mind controlled slave, do not live in reality. They live in a fictional world. They work off scripts. For instance if I was going to have a particular personality pick up drugs, they may hypnotically see the person handing them the bag of drugs as The White Rabbit and they might see the bag as some treats or something. They live in a totally fictional world and since these personalities only hold the body at isolated points in time, they don't have any cohesive life in which to challenge the hypnotic programming script they have been given. They live their entire lives in trance. These scripts are very important to use to control the personalities that live in their fictional world.

Wayne Morris: Can you give some other examples of popular culture that have been used for programming?

Fritz Springmeier: Batman, Bewitched, Disney movies. One of the very important Disney movies was "Fantasia" and in my recent book, "Deeper Insights" I have eleven pages where I go through minute by minute, scene by scene, in the movie "Fantasia" and show how Fantasia was created and used to be a programming foundation. Star Wars movies, My Fair Lady which was used in the finishing schools for slaves, Stephen King horror movies are used, Startrek, The Love Boat has been used for the mind control of their cruise prostitutes, E.T. - alien programming of their slaves, Alice in Wonderland.

Wayne Morris: All of these are really prominent in our culture and I am wondering what the effect is on someone who has been programmed if they see these movies again on television or in video rental, or in a movie theatre?

Fritz Springmeier: It just locks in the control and emphasizes the hopelessness. For a mind controlled slave who is living in a whole culture that is controlled by these people, why would their mind ever think of trying to get free? Their spirits were broken when they were children, and everywhere they look they see the control and the programming.

Wayne Morris: This isn't to say that some of these tv programs or films have been deliberately made with mind control in mind, but that they have been used by the programmers?

Fritz Springmeier:Deliberate is more accurate.

Wayne Morris: So some of these expressions of culture have been deliberately created. Have you looked into the backgrounds of some of the people involved in producing them?

Fritz Springmeier: Ducktail Cartoons which is put on by Disney contains deliberate triggers for the children. Deliberate triggers in the advertisements; deliberate messages and codes. In "Deeper Insights" I spend about fifty pages going into Disney, who Disney was, what they did behind the scenes, what the movies are all about. Look at "Beauty and the Beast" you will see an enchanted ____clock, or you will see the character Doorknob - protrayed as a person. That's used in the cartoon, "Alice in Wonderland". Those particular sections will be seen by an alter in a person's system, and the mind will be made to believe that they were a doorknob. These are specifically, creatively put into the films for those reasons.

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